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#MarcusAsks: Marcus Bullock & John Koufos "2nd Chance Hiring Act"

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Full transcript from interview with John Koufos. (July 13, 2021)

Marcus: What's up guys? It's your boy, Marcus Bullock. I'm super excited about this

episode of Marcus asks. I'm super pumped about it. I'm getting ready to let

john Come on in a second. Today we're going to be talking about jobs after

incarceration. So, some of you guys may have questions about how your

loved one should be looking for employment, I think concentration or what

you should be doing to help prepare them for that. And I'm one of the one

of our guests today, specifically works just around that. And so, I'm excited

to be able to join him in a second. so, john should be joined in any minute.

Please, please, please, please This one, this definitely wouldn't be a good

conversation without your comments or your questions. so, if you have

comments, or if you have questions about this topic, or any other topic

that we're talking about Marcus asks, please make sure you drop them in

comment section. I'm going to be reading them and monitor them as we

continue to have this conversation. But I wanted to be able to make sure

that we're very, very, very thoughtful about addressing some of the actual

issues that happen inside of the community. If you guys don't know, I'm

Marcus Bullock, I'm the CEO and founder of Flikshop. And my job is to be

able to make sure that I work hard as I don't know what to keep family

members connected to their incarcerated loved ones. And so, we do that

with a Flikshop app. And one of the things that we like doing and a part

of ensuring that we keep families connected, it's also connecting folks back

to resources or people that we think that they need to be connected to,

so, that they can, you know, help their loved one overcome this situation

of, you know, incarceration after, after, I mean, successful reentry after

incarceration. So, super excited about this, guys. I'm getting old George's

joint. I'm getting ready to let a man. so, I hope you guys enjoy the

competition. Please be mindful and make sure. And um, yeah, we’re

goanna gets into this conversation. Let's see if we can get john to join in a

second. Let's see here. It looks like john is joining. There he is.

John: I'm out of the Stone Age. Like I said, I created an Instagram account solely

to be with you, my friend.

Marcus: Oh, man, thank you so, much for joining us this evening, man.

John: Happy to be here.

Marcus: This is so, dope. I'm super excited to be able to have you here. Solo job.

One of the things that we like to do in our episodes of markets as is we like

to get straight into the conversation. And we'd like to be able to make sure

that we give our audience, our listeners, the viewers, here on it live,

eventually, we're going to be able to cut this all up. And we're going to post

it on our YouTube channel so, that folks can be able to watch this for many,

many days, months, and even years to come. And so, I think it's important

for them to know exactly who we're talking to when we open up these

kinds of conversations. so, let's take a quick minute, before we even jump

into the conversation if you will take a moment to introduce yourself. All

of you all that are here know if you don't, I'm Marcus Bullock, I'm the CEO

and founder of Flikshop. We built the technology to help keep our loved

ones connected during their incarceration periods. And then I'm joined

today by my homeboy john, whom I met I met up just a few years ago at

the White House. And it was interesting that that day at the White House,

and I told him that day I'm like, Listen, you know, anybody who I know who

has been in me shoes, and also wants to help contribute to helping people

successfully, we enter back into the community. I went in on one

supporting them and he said he wanted to do the same, which led us to

this conversation here. JOHN, take a minute. Introduce yourself, please to

listeners or viewers.

John: Sure. Well, thank you for having me, my friend. And yeah, it seems so, long

ago when you were up there with Kim Kardashian. Right, I thought you

were going to be the most popular guy there that and I was hoping to be

number two, and then you were number two, and I was like a distant third

way in the back. But anyway, I’m John Koufos. And I I'm the executive

director of a project called Safe Streets and second chances which is

housed it right on crime. Right on crime is a tremendous organization

responsible for leading the closure of 10 prisons in the state of Texas and

bringing criminal justice reform really across the country but to

conservative states. Before that, I was in New Jersey, I was the executive

director of the New Jersey reentry Corporation, helping former governor

Jim McGreevey builds that organization and build sites around the state.

Before way before that I was a criminal defense and civil rights lawyer for

about a decade. But the interesting part other than my legal career, was

the fact that I went to a state prison in New Jersey. But 10 years ago,

actually, it was June of 2011 I was driving My car drunk I was functional

alcoholic marker as you know, and we drive in my car drunk, hit somebody

hurt them try to live my way out of it until I turned myself in. Thanks, Good

Lord, that person would recover. Nothing, I did help that candidly. And I

would go deservedly go to prison for hurting that person causing that

drunk driving accident. And that would begin my ability to overcome

alcoholism. And it gave me a sense not just a purpose, but it gave me the

viewpoint that candidates candidly my clients were telling me about when

I was practicing law; they would tell me about how terrible the prison

system was how much it didn't help but I didn't think I could help as a

criminal defense lawyer and of course as any of us who've had criminal

defense lawyers know that I also thought I knew everything about this but

until that door closes behind you and they say yard out you know you don't

know anything about the system. And I was most moved Marcus by the

goodness I saw in prison you see everything in prison of course GOOD BAD

otherwise, but the goodness to some of the people in their cell mates I had

you know, nobody asked me for money, which was good. I was going

bankrupt, but I still had canteen nobody asked me for money, Marcus, but

nearly everybody asked me for a job. And I never ever forgot that. And that

conversation when conversations with those, those men at Bayside Street

prison in New Jersey catalyzed my desire to want to help I observed one

thing that really was there anything that repulsed me in prison but one

thing I just could not stomach was the fact that people were getting

paroled going to the halfway house and then being sent right back because

of some I don't want to curse on your on your live feed your BS, there some

for some bullshit fine or fee, you know, they couldn't afford it was a

criminalization of poverty, Marcus, that's what we were I was witnessing

every day, you report, you couldn't afford to stay out on the streets, you

were sent back and attack, and you serve the rest of your sentence out. so,

I know I was going to help with that. But I vowed when I got out, I would

do something about it with my legal network. And we created the state's

largest pro bono network, it was anywhere in the country at that point, to

restore driver's licenses mitigate fines and fees resulting over 400 drivers’

licenses restored 1000s of identity documents 10s of 1000s of dollars, fines

waived and 1000s of warrants cancelled. so, that's how I got my start and

reentry, what was doing that you know, and had I never gone to prison, I

would have never been able to see that with my own eyes and God Willing

Fashion a solution to it with my own two hands.

Marcus: Now this is so, interesting, man, like, you know, I think that there's so,

many different stories, I'm sure that you can say the same right when you

met people while you were there. But you know, people talking about their

journey into handcuffs. And then now, you know, after they get out the

work that they decide to do, no matter what industry they decide to

pursue. Like it's so, interesting when you hear the stories, right. One of the

things that is very important to me is like really just changing the narrative

for the people that are coming out of prison and be like, this is not like a

one-line person. This is not a monolithic way of you know, living people are

like just strictly like one way going, in prison or out of prison. We're all

humans. And I think that this is one of the reasons why I'm so, passionate

about wanting to be able to make sure that we keep the families connected

is always because its sensitive humanity, like how you described like, even

the people who you met when you were there and how they didn't want

to extra bread, but it was excellent jobs. Like it just shows like the level of

humanity that we all have a desire to, like want to come home and win.

Sometimes I think it's centered around social capital and resources. How

do you see like the reentry path for me specifically, because you're in this

career, right? Like, I mean, people that have been in prison like me, or

some of our, you know, customers who use our technology, or the people

who support our company, right? They understand like, you, you know, the

dead berries were people that are coming home from prison, but because

you’re specifically in the word, like one you have your own reentry path

and when it was like for you to like go from an attorney that was practicing

law to like handcuffs and then coming home and just trying to figure out

how to redirect your career. Like what have you seen from others and

some of the challenges that people have had after coming home from


John: Oh, I mean, they're so many you know, before I answered that, I just want

to I want to point something out touching on and you know this because

you started this company, but, you know, I remember when they did mail

call, and I always got mail because well, somebody had some money. He

was suing me God. You know what my house was getting foreclosed.

Marcus: People stay with you while you were in prison.

John: Well, foreclosure actions on my house, the car is being repossessed.

There's like various legal actions coming in. I had settled the lawsuit related

to the car.

Marcus: For instance, like it shows like life still was going on, even though you were


John: I'm sorry. Keep going. Sure. so, I got mail every day, I may not have wanted

the mail I got, but I got it. And you know, you just look at people's faces

when their name is not called every day for mail. Right. And your

organization, your company creates that that necessary linkage, which by

the way, is critical. The reason Hathaway right, and you know that and I

think you're the people viewing know that, but it's worth saying,

specifically, was the barrier. So, you know, people think that when you're,

you know, when you're a criminal defense lawyer, that gets jammed up

that, you know, your life is just going to continue normally when you get

out of prison, but actually, you know, you're in many ways, you know, I had

very good friends. But I also was radioactive to large sections of the

business community, right, because they didn't care that, you know, I was

perhaps one of them before, right. The fact of the matter was, I was a felon

now, and I use that word because that's the way I was you. You know,

people first language certainly not was not a thing when I got out. And

Marcus: Definitely not me that yeah,

John: Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, the barriers that that, I mean, I faced them

myself, again, my home was foreclosed upon, I had nowhere to go when

parole said, well, if you want to leave, you have to show us an address. I

was fortunate enough and privileged to have a law school roommate, let

me move in with him, right. But if I didn't have housing, I was sitting till God

knows what until they probably lost my date. As I started to do the work,

you know, and I started, you know, like any lawyer would just looking at

the legal problem. Going back to that driver's license issue, you know, you

did you have people that don't even have identification to prove who they

are. so, that means a number of things, right? Let's just stick with that

issue. Before I get to the rest of the discrete issues. If you don't have

identification, and you will, and proles tells you to get a job, well, you're

not getting a job, because you can't complete an I nine form of

identification, you're never going to get housing, you can't go to the doctor,

if you're in the throes of addiction, or you need your, your medicine, you're

not going to see a doctor because you have no identification, you're not

going to do anything. so, you know, what happens then is you have people

who are, you know, administratively barred from their own recovery, and

their own reentry? Then you get into the housing providers, and I'll use

myself as an example. so, I went to get an apartment in Hoboken, New

Jersey before I moved to DC, because by law school buddy lived in

Hoboken. I couldn't get anyone to rent an apartment to me, I have four

cosigners. For it all, you know, bank, general counsel's etc. Nobody would

rent the Fallon John Koufos, an apartment that carried over when we

moved to DC, our first apartment and I can say it now, we bought a house

here now. But our first apartment was as being my wife's name because

they even DC as progressive as it claims to be would not let me be on the

lease. On the first year, I'd make a big stink about it. That doesn't, I'm going

to go through a few and then I'm going to get to jobs, right? Because job

Marcus: You're going. It's a good stuff

John: It is the number one problem. so, take little things, right? Think of

something you've never most people think of life insurance, right? so, I

have my you know, I get married, I have a two-year-old girl, my little girls

would be two, two years old next week. And you want to get life insurance

when you're having a baby in case you die. so, the baby will be okay. I

couldn't even get life insurance. Right? Nobody would insure me, and I

have no medical conditions to prevent me from getting life insurance. It

was because I had a criminal record. If I didn't have the access to the legal

community that I had, because of who I was, I would have never ever

gotten life insurance. I was able to get the right people on the phone purely

because of that. There's nothing more unfair. And there's nothing that that

crystallizes the privilege that exists more than that, right? Because you

don't know anybody. You're out of luck. Now, let's talk about jobs. Right?

So, you know, the, the, the problem is, is that employers typically don't

follow the science, right? so, they follow the fact that they may have not

known anyone who have gotten jammed up before. They may have certain

pre, you know, prejudgments and prejudices on the subject. But what

happens though, what happens is, people who have criminal records if

they're even allowed to be in the line, or at the back of the line in most

situations, and you know, this is this is something that, you know, I got out

of prison in 13. so, I'm not talking about 100 years ago. so, what happens

is, you can't get a job and then what happens is employers They have

businesses to run. so, if they have one bad experience with an employee,

right, who happen to have a criminal record, nobody else gets a job from

that point forward. But the fascinating part is because they're hiring with

their gut and not talking to people in the criminal justice movement, like

yourself, or me or people to society for human resources management,

they're talking to those experts. What is what is happening here is that you

may take someone out who is in early recovery, right? so, a person has

particular addiction, their early recovery, well, the science is going to tell

you that their relapse may be a part of their reentry, right, that relapse

happens for people. so, if they relapse and become and don't become a

good employee, that's not reflective of everybody else. But people with

the lowest recidivism rates are people convicted of murder, a couple of

reasons. Number one, they're older than everybody else, in all likelihood,

because they were stuck doing so, much time on the charge. so, because

with age being the number one predictor of recidivism, you're safe, if

you're an employee, your safest bet is probably hiring a person convicted

of murder as opposed to someone who might have been a recovering

alcoholic, and I use that being one. so, thankfully, though, Marcus, we've

seen private industry start to take the lead. And you know, people don't

like to admit this, but one of the most catalyzing corporations on the planet

for this was Koch Industries, right? People gave the Koch brothers a really

bad name, for whatever political reasons they might have done. so, but

Koch, when Koch Industries said we should be in the second chance hiring

game, the business community took notice and the business community

followed. Give me an example when we were in New Jersey, New Jersey,

very, you know, blue state progressive state. I call it fake progressive in a

lot of ways because they'll tell you, it's progressive, right? They'll tell you,

they're with you. And then when it comes down to doing something, you

know, you might as well be in Alabama anyway. But I, you know, with when

we were doing an employment opportunity summit in New Jersey, with

Governor Christie, back in 2017, the general counsel of the time Koch

Industries, Mark Holden, came all the way up to keynote this for us, right.

And first of all, he had probably much more important things to do with

that, where I would have thought it would be more important, but he was

selflessly Mark Holden selflessly devoted himself to this issue, and so, does

when he took the stage, other CEOs, other general counsel's other folks

heard him speaking their language. And then they wanted to hire people,

the highest spike we ever had in employment as a New Jersey reentry

Corporation was Mark Holden was there because the entire business

community started to give our people a chance. And once they gave our

people a chance, they realize that more often than not, you were going to

do better than you would with just an arrow or the same or better than

with an employee off the street. Reason being our population is, you know,

Marcus, you know, is, I mean, we're loyal. Right? Because nobody wants to

give us a chance at almost anything. so, we're much more loyal to

employers, and I think the average person coming off the street, our

knowledge base is obviously having a different have a different type. And

the other piece is, is we appreciate opportunity in ways other dope,

because most of the doors are closed to us. so, I think that that all that to

say that thanks to people like Koch Industries, the folks that you know, cut

50 and dream core CCI or the just trust it is now Arnold ventures, etc. so,

all of those groups started to catalyze change. And now we see folks if you

can believe this business roundtable, which is comprised of the biggest

CEOs on Earth, on Earth, JP Morgan, you know, CVS, Aetna, etc. These

corporations are now through business roundtable have formed a second

chance business coalition with the Society for human resources

management. so, by doing that, what they've done is they bring in, they

brought our issue to the people who have endless amounts of influence.

And I think that is that is one of the greatest victories, unsung victories of

the criminal justice movement. And candidly, people like you, right are the

reason that a lot of these big corporations will have the confidence to go

out on a limb for our population, they see Marcus Bullock the see Flik-

shop, they're excited about the see the potential, and they're all looking

carefully for the next mark as well. They never looking for the next john,

but they're all looking for the next view. And the beauty of this is that we

have a business community today. That's excited about the issue. Now it's

on us to do two things. We have to keep them excited. Well, three things

we have to keep them excited. We have to make sure that we are working

with reentry programs to provide them the best possible candidate we

want them raving about people with criminal records. We want them

saying they're the best employees we ever had. And then of course, we

have to make sure the accountability is there, and then they're actually

hiring the people, they say they're going to hire.

Marcus: Let's go with that. Let's stick with that. Last one. What are some of the one?

I wanted to go back to that. I want to I want to go back to some of those

companies that you name that are forming this, you know, this this round

table that are being intentional about this second chance hiring practice

that is kind of sort of I'm starting to hear it sweeping across the company

across country. Can you name What are some of those companies that are

being thoughtful about this second, chance, hiring and commitment?

John: Sure. Well, Koch Industries has always been that though we should start

there. Among large corporations always been there. But when you're

looking at business roundtable in the second chance business coalition, JP

Morgan, has hired people, you know, as I think they're up to a few

1000,nationwide, led by Jamie diamond CEO of JP Morgan. Yeah, but Eaton

, which is a huge, you know, manufacturing company, which is based in

Ohio, if I recall, in fact, their CEO, co-chairs that you're seeing CVS, start to

get into this space, as well, and you're seeing the energy industry get into

this, you know, in a bigger way sought a lot during the Trump

administration, because candidly, the energy sector was in a different

financial position was booming, then you couldn't find anybody to work on

oil rigs or any of those places. so, the energy sector, and those monstrous

corporations in the energy sector started to hire more people. I can tell

you; the really exciting thing is to use a What about if you're in Newark,

New Jersey, right? If you're in Newark, New Jersey, and your biggest

employer, are places are big business, but they're your biggest sort of

community employers or hospital systems, you can't work in a hospital

because yeah, have a CDS charge. Right. One of the exciting things that

we're seeing places like, like our RWJ Barnabas, the second largest hospital

system in New Jersey do is they recognize that you can't hire someone with

a particular record, say as a, you know, to handle the, you know, the

narcotics in the hospital, right? You can't be around certain patients,

depending on what the regulations are. But what they're willing to do is

they're analyzing their supply chains, right? so, what they're doing is

they're being intentional about hiring, perhaps, the food vendor, for

example, in some of the hospitals will be run by someone who is formerly

incarcerated, right, or someone from the community. The same with the

people who provide any number of services to hospital, whether it's the

cleaning services, whether it's the uniforms, whether it's the some of the

support and training staff, some of the medical billing and coding, right. so,

you're seeing industries that can't get into the fight, doing it in other ways.

I think that's really exciting. You know, there was a great woman, if you

ever have chance to meet her from New Jersey, named Micheline Davis,

she was the vice president of corporate affairs there. And she and barrier

Strauss is the CEO are two of the reasons why that launched.

Marcus: You know, one, I think this is so, interesting, as I think about some of the

opportunities being unlocked, I mean, you we if you leave it up to like the

with the media will betray or forget that which will lead them to like the

people who will want to read, you're talking about what the opportunities

are, before they come home, you would, you would believe that there

aren't any that are available for people that are coming home from prison,

what I'm hearing from you on that one, there's a growing trend of folks

who are being thoughtful about giving Second Chance hiring, you know,

bringing second chance hiring practices into their companies, but they're

also entire industries that are continuing to snowball this effort. One of the

questions I kind of have for you here is specifically around the people that

are in the sales and how, you know, knowing that while you will give an

example of a Hospital in Newark, but you know, there's people that are

in Palo Alto, you know, in the tech, you don't want to come over to tech

industries, all the people that are in Florida, who are you know, thinking

about how they integrate themselves back into the agriculture industry, or

whatever the case maybe you no matter where you are demographically,

right? I mean, geographically. One of the things the one of the questions I

have for to eggs for the community of the listeners are, how should you

prepare yourself for getting back to work? When you're getting ready to

come home? If you're sending a sale? Now, what do you do to prepare

yourself to get back to work? And then the second part of that question is,

how should the loved ones the family members help to support that

preparation to get your loved one back into one of these amazing careers

opportunities after incarceration?

John: Sure, great question. so, I think the number one thing and again, this is the

this is the pencil pusher lawyer in me, right, but the number you got to

make sure that your administrative barriers are handled and what are your

administrative barriers where we began Right, do you have open warrants

anywhere. And if you do, make sure that somebody is contacting the court

for you to do that don't rely on the prison social worker or any of that. If

you have, if you have people on the streets if you have no buddy, then you

have to, right? Contact your legal aid organizations, your reentry programs,

or write to me at write on crime. And I'll find you a local lawyer to help you


Marcus: The American Job Center,

John: Yes, they used to be called one stop career centers. And, and I had the

privilege of helping run one in Jersey City, the reentry side one few years

back. so, this is all free training. so, the idea then is that you want the loved

ones to be able to help someone get into that right. The other thing I think

your loved ones, the loved ones should be thinking about is understanding

the adjustment period, right? No matter how many letters we write and

say, hey, you know, on day one, I'm ready to start working, that's probably

not the reality. On day one, you have to see how your stomach handles

human food. Again, because you've eaten growl for X amount of time,

right? On day one, you have to not jump when a loud noise happens near

you. Right, you have to you have to sleep in a bed if you have that option.

That is you're not if you have loved ones to go into. And the loved ones

have to I hope we'll create a little bit of space for that doesn't have to be

forever didn't have to be two months, you have to be a month, just give a

week or two, for someone to get a phone to understand how to use the

phone to say hello to people they haven't seen in a while, right? Let them

get their feet under them a little bit. And I think you'll see much greater

success. so, loved ones can help in that planning process. And person has

an addiction history. And it's going to be a condition of parole, you need to

get that handled right at the front end. Because I'm living proof that you

know that will kill you and grab somebody else faster than almost anything

else. It also will be making you render you unable to participate in any sort

of real reentry program. The final piece of it, I think, has to do with making

sure, that a person knows that their first job out is not necessarily going to

be their last job out. And that's really important because you can go to the

American Job Center, say you want to be a coder and they have coding that

there, right? while you're doing your coding, you may need a job. And you

may work in some industry, you're not that thrilled about right. And I think

you just have to remember that if you can show someone that there are

ladders of opportunity to get to where you want to get people will. People

are self-motivated, they will handle this themselves. I think a lot of the rub

I saw, or I've seen working in direct services in reentry is the fact that you

get put in a warehouse pushing a pallet jack and no one ever tells you can

do anything else. And candidly, no one ever creates an opportunity for you

to do anything else. If you have to work in a kitchen, you know work to be

goat, take the cooking class, the American Job Center become the chef and

then you can become the owner like a chef Jeff or if you have that kind of

talent. And I think that's there's a psychological game to this as well as an

operational game. And I think if the to run concurrently, you are goanna

see much better results.

Marcus: This is incredible. This is amazing jewels that you're dropping right here.

Oh, you know, I know we're running out of time. But I want to I got a couple

of questions I want to be able to hit. Specifically, one of the folks in our

comments wanted to know; how would you describe the impact of the first

or the second step acts.

John: So, the first step back, you know, the, the first step back, and people don't

like to give it any credit because it was President Trump, right? And if you

don't, if first doesn't like President Trump, they you know, they start to go

apoplectic if you say he did anything well, but he happened to do criminal

justice really well. And this is what I will say about the Trump legacy on the

first step back, the most important part of the first step back is political.

And here's why. It gave red state governors and had little interest or were

politically worried about doing criminal justice reform, the cover to do so.

You saw red state governors hard on crime Governor's look around and

say, hmm, well, if Trump did it, and people like Trump, and people might

state like Trump, I can do this too. He gave them a pathway through the

first step back to do what's right. Right. And what's Andrew restore dig,

there's some level of dignity. At the same time, the first step back,

obviously, you know, did some great things on crack cocaine disparities.

With the retroactivity, the compassionate release aspect of it was sorely

needed. You know, you have people, you have some prisons that look like

a, you know, a nursing home right now, people are no threat to anybody,

and they're being held. so, I think that was the real import of the first step.

There's tremendous law on its face between, you know, prerelease

custody and all the all the technical part that will put you to sleep if you

read it, right. It's a very dense Ville. But the real anyone, the criminal justice

movement, should know that that is the law that gave cover too hard on

crime folks that did not want to do touch this issue before and then they


Marcus: There's going to we got we got like two more minutes that's going to the

right, how would you How would you describe the second step?

John: So, I think I think that the next step that we need to do refer and Cory

Booker's is one of the people spearheading this senator Booker is second

look, act right. Second Look, just the quick version of second look, is that it

gives the person a chance to go back before the judge and a very long they

have a 25-year sentence, you get to go back for the judge within say, 10

years, the judge can see if you've tried to do any better. And if you're

appropriate for re sentencing, I think that's a great way to right size, some

of these exorbitant sentence things and mitigate some of the disastrous

racial disparities in our system.

Marcus: Now, this is good stuff. This is good stuff. I mean, I'm sure folks wanted to

hear the answers that like they're reading about first step and second load,

but like they wanted to be able to hear someone else be able to break

down some language that they speak. I have one more quick question. And

then I'm goanna give you some nice long words if you would say what

some of the hot industries are, that you're hearing about, for people that

are looking for jobs that are running around the country, right. And I know

that each one of our local geographical areas has their own hot spaces. But

what trends are you seeing?

John: The great, I'm so, glad you asked that you should anyone who has a port

near them or anything controlled by a port authority or a twit card

transportation worker identification credential, one of the things I've been

very lucky to do is I've been working with the Biden administration on

streamlining the process for people with criminal records, most TWIC card

is what you need to work on a port, right. And working on a port could

mean any number of employers there could be the energy industry, etc.

But the idea behind the twit card is that the, it's for so, long, people just

survive a record, I can't get a twit card. That's not true. It's just the process

is a real pain in the ass right now, right for people with criminal records.

But we're working to develop methods to streamline that we have to pilot

in a few places. But I would encourage anyone with a criminal record who's

been out for over a year because you do not usually need that buffer

period to look for the better paying jobs. The ports are usually union jobs,

they usually pay more than the community jobs as well. And they usually

have career growth and they're any number of things like everything food

service to heavy manufacturing, to the oil and tight fitting and gas


Marcus: Thank you. so, these are incredible, incredible resources. Gentlemen,

utilize word. One of the big questions that you know that I have personally

are right, what do I say to my best friend, or my cousin or one of my

nephews who are coming out of a sale, and I'm not really as connected?

They're not like the person that I'm assuming of you know, the

responsibility for it right? But I want to see them when they come home.

What are some of the ways that I can support them, right? I'm not the one

that's like they're not living with me, right? They aren't. I'm not like, you

know, giving them a bunch of cash, you know, I'm not, you know,

employing them straight out the door, right, like, but I do want to help

support them when they come home. I also may have some resources at

me at my job, right? But I don't know should I connect them to those

resources and my job? Should I like, you, how I want to help you with your

resume? Do I? What do I do? Like? How do I support them?

John: Sure. Well, listen, all of us know that the number one-way people get jobs

is by knowing somebody, right. And that's not that's not a joke. That's the

reality of it. Right? If you know, somebody, usually you're called before the

job opening even happens. so, what I like to do, and when I encourage

everyone to do are to think about your networks right now, but be very

judicious about your networks, and be very protective of your networks in

the following way. If the person you're talking to is trying to do the right

thing, open your network to them, you may not want to open up a network

within your own office because of you know, some people don't like to

refer people within their own office. But you know, people who hire right

I know people who hire, and everybody probably knows somebody who

hires have that conversation with them, right? Because go to bat for people

where you can, right, where it's where it's comfortable, and sometimes

going to bat is hard advocacy, right? saying, look, this is right guys, solid

guy known for a lot of years. If you did, sometimes it's, hey, listen, I know

that he's on the level. I know he's doing the right thing. I know his mom is

helping them where they can, and his grandmother is helping him all he

needs his foot in the door, can you help him out? And you'd be amazed

that when john or Marcus or somebody else comes to somebody and says

that how many doors can open? And there's nothing wrong with that,

because that's how most of the people get their jobs in it. Anyway, you

know, how many lawyers do you think get hired blindly, right? Somebody

knows them and says, I know this guy from the prosecutor's office, give

them a call, and let's bring him on. so, we should really be looking to use

our networks where appropriate. If we do that, we're also going to create

momentum that normalizes the hiring of people with criminal records.

Marcus: Man, this is though, john, thank you again for joining us, man. Having us

having a conversation with me, you guys that have joined us, you know,

thank you for joining us for another episode of Marcus as well. You know,

we tried to be able to have real conversations, and specifically with people

who are directly impacted by the justice system, right? Like we are the ones

who want to we know what we want to know, we know what questions

we have, we know the conversations that we want to see had, right. so, if

you want to join us a future, you will have quotes for john Oh, jump in his

DMS. Make sure you follow him on Instagram and ask them those

questions that you may have not wanted to eggs in the public, right? If you

want to be able to find a seat or listen to a topic that you think is going to

impact your loved one, jump into Flikshops VMs. Our team is more than

happy to figure out ways to be able to continue to support our community.

When we hear influx of offices, we want to make sure that we're reducing

recidivism, when people come out of prison, we want to make sure that

we keep help keep them out. And we're going to do everything that's

humanly possible to be able to make that happen. It wouldn't happen

though, without our community that people like you guys. And folks like

you, john, thank you so, much again for joining us this evening. You took

so, much time out of your schedule this tonight. You show me up you know

i mean everyone knows I wear a T shirt every day you show me up with an

amazingly tight necktie, which is super bad, but I'm goanna forgive you for

this time. I hope you'll come back and join us for another conversation in

the future.

John: Anytime my friends Thanks for everything you do, have a great night

Marcus: Absolutely, man. You do the same. Talk soon. See you guys later. Thank

you, guys, for joining us.



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